tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post3342272502946030539..comments2024-02-19T01:24:09.839-06:00Comments on Faultline USA: Brite Divinity School to Honor Rev. Jeremiah WrightFaultline USAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06691318732494110768noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-81023693635262645382012-06-12T22:13:12.417-06:002012-06-12T22:13:12.417-06:00Conservative and liberal theologians speak the sam...Conservative and liberal theologians speak the same language but they live in different dimensions and use different dictionaries. To the former, liberation theology means that we restructure our lives according to God's will in order to be freed from the shackles of sin (whatver that means). This is their sine qua non of salvation. The cessation of oppression is not a weighty matter in their theology. To the liberals, on the other hand, it is; in fact, it is their sine qua non of salvation. And if the oppressors do not desist in their oppression of the weak, then it is the spiritual and moral fiat of the oppressed to see that they do--here and now. These two groups will never understand each other.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-68743454503117909212012-06-12T12:05:55.896-06:002012-06-12T12:05:55.896-06:00The proponents of apartheid in South Africa condem...The proponents of apartheid in South Africa condemned the theology of Nelson Mandela (and the ANC) because is was supposedly Marxist based. The conservative Roman Catholic establishement in Latin America felt the same about liberation theology because it too, they claimed, was rooted in communism. And black liberation theology in the US has fared no better because, like all other freedom theologies, it too was--and continues to be--seen as an enemy of traditional American values. So, what's so new about the Rev. Wright phenomenon?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-90403696435039356582008-03-24T22:25:00.000-06:002008-03-24T22:25:00.000-06:00Thank you so much Roger for your very kind comment...Thank you so much Roger for your very kind comments. They are greatly appreciated. I know that many blogs don’t allow anonymous comments but the nature of this post, dealing with racism, is so sensitive that some people don’t feel safe revealing their identities, so I’ve made allowances.<BR/><BR/>Anonymous, thank you for the blessing and may I return that blessing to you as well.Faultline USAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691318732494110768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-86482657435699977932008-03-24T18:15:00.000-06:002008-03-24T18:15:00.000-06:00Blessings on the journey, Barbara.Blessings on the journey, Barbara.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-77336548056166978142008-03-24T17:52:00.000-06:002008-03-24T17:52:00.000-06:00Barb -- You are a perfect lady who always treats p...Barb -- You are a perfect lady who always treats people with the utmost respect and consideration. If some people have a problem with the extremely civil manner in which you hold these discussions, then it is their problem, not yours. Those of us who have the pleasure of knowing you know how true this is.<BR/>To me, your patience with some of these people is truly remarkable, and something I could never pull off. Especially when you're dealing with Anonymous #1, and Anonymous # 2, 3, and 4.<BR/>Keep up the good fight. We support you 100%.Roger W. Gardnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10255672744176037466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-70181055253013500162008-03-24T17:39:00.000-06:002008-03-24T17:39:00.000-06:00Note to anonymous poster who is “striving to have ...Note to anonymous poster who is “striving to have a teachable spirit” with “humility”. You failed! ByeFaultline USAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691318732494110768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-22015957972622668082008-03-24T17:07:00.000-06:002008-03-24T17:07:00.000-06:00Barbara:Yes, it's the same Anonymous. But it's pro...Barbara:<BR/><BR/>Yes, it's the same Anonymous. But it's probably time to end our conversation.<BR/><BR/>I find it difficult to stay in dialogue with people who adopt a disrespectful tone toward me (the phrase "Kook-aid drinkers and cloud dancers" borders on insulting) and assume they understand my motives better than I do ("Of course you meant to gig me").<BR/><BR/>My error, I think, was offering feedback about how I experience you without checking whether you want (or are willing to receive) that sort of feedback. I apologize.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-23618098743731863222008-03-24T10:01:00.000-06:002008-03-24T10:01:00.000-06:00AnonymousI assume that I am responding to the same...Anonymous<BR/>I assume that I am responding to the same “anonymous” who is “writing from the margin of many overlapping communities.” I also assume that you are responding to my question,“. . .how should Christians spread the word of God to those who haven’t met Christ and who, most likely, are of a different culture?”<BR/><BR/>Let me grant that as Christians we all should strive to have “a teachable spirit” and to proceed with “humility.” Now what exactly does the phrase “to set aside (or to "bracket") my privilege” mean? If you are referring to yourself, as someone “writing from the margin of many overlapping communities”, what kind of “privilege” are you setting aside? <BR/><BR/>I may not have made my question clear enough, because you are answering me as to how you, personally, would respond to another’s suffering on a one-to-one basis in spreading the word of God. <BR/>The question I should have asked is how do we as Christians, on a larger level, proceed to spread the word of God to differing cultures? What kind of assumptions do we make and policies do we set? <BR/><BR/>You wrote,” It's difficult to do, to be sure. And it becomes more difficult every time I conflate North American norms with the gospel. (That's what I mean by "colonizing.")”<BR/><BR/>Let’s grant, for the sake of argument, that it is impossible to completely remove yourself from your culture, any more than a scientist can remove his expectations from an experiment. My questions are (1) What “North American norms” do you find unacceptable to the universal church that have been fused with the gospel? (2) Assuming that nothing exists within a vacuum, what cultural norms would you use in replacement?<BR/><BR/>You wrote, “Thanks for inviting me to be less theological and more political. That's not the sort of conversation with you that I would find helpful or meaningful, though. And I'm not sure HOW to do that with you; my tentative impression, based on the identity you've constructed through your blog, is that your politics IS your theology.”<BR/><BR/>That’s amusing. Of course you meant to “gig” me. But since you want to divorce spreading the word of God from your culture/our culture/any culture, and you don’t wish to speak in terms of politics, should I assume that you would prefer to remain transcendent?<BR/><BR/>Let’s hear it for Kook-aid drinkers and cloud dancers!Faultline USAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691318732494110768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-53334253079220162292008-03-24T09:00:00.000-06:002008-03-24T09:00:00.000-06:00Joseph:Sorry I didn’t immediately respond but it w...Joseph:<BR/>Sorry I didn’t immediately respond but it was Easter and I wasn’t working. The link you provided is very interesting, but I did notice that it is copyright protected so I can’t excerpt any of it here. It looks like the link is implying that Kenny Lewis of Kenny’s Ribs sold some land (parcel# 31-07-404-016) to Rev. Jeremiah Wright for $300K and that Wright sold the land to Trinity church for $10 million at an interest rate 2% over the prevailing interest rate at the time. The land was to be used for Planned Unit Developmemt. I can’t comment on the veracity of the information. Here’s the link for internet sleuths http://webofdeception.com/#wrightFaultline USAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691318732494110768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-23883275102114695282008-03-23T11:01:00.000-06:002008-03-23T11:01:00.000-06:00What does thathavetodo with the tax lien informati...What does thathavetodo with the tax lien information at:<BR/><BR/>http://webofdeception.com/#wrightAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-78013759061572868112008-03-23T08:35:00.000-06:002008-03-23T08:35:00.000-06:00It starts with striving to have a teachable spirit...It starts with striving to have a teachable spirit, Barbara. For me, that entails humility as expressed in Philippians 2.<BR/><BR/>Personally, becoming humble and teachable means that I need to try to set aside (or to "bracket") my privilege and assume Christ is *already* present in all situations if I can learn to see him.<BR/><BR/>Becoming a "little Christ" to others (in the sense in which Luther used the phrase) means that I need to let them teach me how Christ is already present in their lives.<BR/><BR/>(Usually, I find Christ's presence at the point of someone's suffering. And if I can identify how I contribute to their suffering--well, then I'm well on my way to "sharing the mind of Christ.")<BR/><BR/>It's difficult to do, to be sure. And it becomes more difficult every time I conflate North American norms with the gospel. (That's what I mean by "colonizing.")<BR/><BR/>But that's something I can't help doing; I'm a sinful creature whose idolatry of my own way of seeing/being will always get in the way being attentive to the ways of God. I keep working on that.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for inviting me to be less theological and more political. That's not the sort of conversation with you that I would find helpful or meaningful, though.<BR/><BR/>And I'm not sure HOW to do that with you; my tentative impression, based on the identity you've constructed through your blog, is that your politics IS your theology.<BR/><BR/>I say that not to "gig" you, but to clarify how I experience you in this setting.<BR/><BR/>Finally, I'm sorry you find the term "imperial church" denigrating.<BR/><BR/>I don't intend it that way; I intend it as an accurate description of how I experience certain forms of Christian expression.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-41788735884768947472008-03-23T00:00:00.000-06:002008-03-23T00:00:00.000-06:00More on Rev. Jeremiah Wright htt...More on Rev. Jeremiah Wright <BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/> http://webofdeception.com/#wrightAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-40379199431967827452008-03-22T23:10:00.000-06:002008-03-22T23:10:00.000-06:00Anonymous, as we continue this discussion, I hope ...Anonymous, as we continue this discussion, I hope we can dispense with too much theological speak as this blog is primarily a political blog, and as you well know, such talk is likely to put many readers into a stupor. So, if there are any readers that desire to join or follow this discussion, that are not necessarily theologically inclined, but wish to gain or share some small insight, let’s define our terms, and keep our comments brief. <BR/><BR/>Now your use of the denigrating term, “imperial church,” would most likely be unsettling to most traditional Christians. I believe that all Christians would agree that the church has had a dark history with regard to the political subjugation of peoples throughout the centuries. But the church has also had a glorious history with regard to the ongoing development of our faith and the enrichment of cultures throughout the world. I believe, however, that when traditional Christians are talking about meaning and content, they are focusing less on the political/historical and more on the spiritual/eternal.<BR/><BR/>The statement I made concerning variance was a shortcut and was not intended to be a theologically succinct statement. Traditional Christianity recognizes that there are, of course, varied cultural expressions of Christianity, but also recognizes the church universal. In other words it’s both diverse and universal. So yes, the church universal is a wonderfully diverse community but traditional Christianity would expect some level of uniformity within that diversity, so that the church, itself, might be recognizable and discernable as uniquely Christian. <BR/><BR/>I can understand your fears of universalizing statements as leading to a “colonizing religion,” but I wonder if you might expand upon that in a few brief statements. For example, how should Christians spread the word of God to those who haven’t met Christ and who, most likely, are of a different culture? What are the limits of Christian diversity, or are there any theological limits? <BR/><BR/>With regard to Rev. Wright’s statements that many white people find offensive and, yes, racist, I found his 9/11 speech interesting in that he spoke forcefully against our desire as Americans for “payback,” yet in focusing upon the negative historical past, he was giving plenty of “payback” to those of us who are not people of color.Faultline USAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691318732494110768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-24099753158893627752008-03-22T20:19:00.000-06:002008-03-22T20:19:00.000-06:00Thanks for the ongoing conversation, Barbara.Your ...Thanks for the ongoing conversation, Barbara.<BR/><BR/>Your use of "Traditional Christians" seems to refer to those who understand the church from a "Christendom" perspective (what I would call "the imperial church").<BR/><BR/>I am unsettled by your statement that "the variance of meaning and content, from age to age, has less variance for traditional Christians" than for others.<BR/><BR/>The statement uses a totalizing and ahistorical rhetorical strategy to erase the many, varied expressions of Christianity and understandings of its theological commitments.<BR/><BR/>Your use of that strategy might not be intentional; I don't know.<BR/><BR/>But to me, universalizing statements of that sort reflect the the institutional and cultural solipsism that allows Christianity to become a colonizing religion. A part of the church's colonial history is the tendency to persecute those who speak truth to power.<BR/><BR/>As someone writing from the margin of many overlapping communities, I perceive the church universal to be a wonderfully diverse community. Theological diversity--including that represented and articulated by Rev. Wright--is a part of that unity of differences, and I celebrate that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-8860131420604024232008-03-22T17:11:00.000-06:002008-03-22T17:11:00.000-06:00Wow! You said a mouthful, Gene. You are obviously ...Wow! You said a mouthful, Gene. You are obviously on top of what has been going on for several decades in not only the DOC, but also in all of the mainline denominations. perhaps to differing extents. <BR/>You see, Gene, it’s a very complex issue because first you have to redefine and expand the definition of “morality.” [Snark] Morality, even for Christians, has to be seen within a cultural “context.”<BR/><BR/>But that’s not easy either. Because you have to redefine and expand what qualifies as “culture.” It’s not just race or ethnicity, or regional differences, because there is no one cultural community for any race etc. For example, there’s “no typical white person”, now, is there?<BR/><BR/> When I was in Brite, almost ten years ago, I learned that there was no such thing as “family values.” After all, what kind of family are we talking about? You see, Gene, you have to first redefine and expand the definition of “family.” And as it turns out, just about anything qualifies today as a family. So, you have to be able to see that family values differ, even among Christians, because families differ, especially within differing cultural contexts. So, how could there be such a thing as “family values”? Obviously there isn’t – at least for progressive Christians. Well, I could go on but, obviously, you get my point. <BR/><BR/>The “progressive” formula is quite simple. Try to be all things to all people, a blank slate, and never say that anything is ever wrong, (unless it’s anything said or done by a middle-class conservative or right-winger). Make your people feel like victims, and then just audaciously offer hope for change. It’s never necessary to define “change,” because, after all, change has to be seen within many differing contexts. And . . . <BR/>See how easy it is to be a progressive, secularized, “Christian” ,multicultural nitwit, or politician?Faultline USAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691318732494110768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-77730737033200287392008-03-22T16:17:00.000-06:002008-03-22T16:17:00.000-06:00I would like to bear witness to what has happened ...I would like to bear witness to what has happened to the DOC in recent years. In the late 60's, I began searching for a different kind of church from the one in which I was raised, because I felt that it was too narrow in its doctrine. Then I found the DOC and I loved the concept of "No creed but Christ". I found it amazing that, although many members might have had such strong and differing views on so many aspects of Christianity, they were still strongly unified in their overall concept of Christ’s message. However, in those days, that simple creed was understood in a different way. It was clearly understood that “No creed but Christ” meant doctrinal freedom, but it did not exempt individuals from moral responsibility. As time has gone by, the DOC has become so "progressive" that it seems that any need for individual morality or responsibility has become almost meaningless. This change has trickled down to the membership from seminaries like Brite, who in efforts to push the envelope on academic freedom, and in their desire to be recognized academically as being on par with other liberal mainline seminaries, appear to have forgotten why they are there. The current Brite academicians don’t seem to understand that if you don’t stand for morality on obvious issues, you become more and more meaningless over time, and your membership continues to dwindle away, year after year.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-71132985787871641292008-03-22T14:13:00.000-06:002008-03-22T14:13:00.000-06:00Anonymous, glad to be of service. So often I’m wri...Anonymous, glad to be of service. So often I’m writing to and with other “Traditional” Christians of varied denominations, and we tend to know each other’s works and what the ”traditional” shortcut means.<BR/> <BR/>I think your key here is: “their language "points toward" shared elements of shared Christian faith but their meaning and content varies from age to age.” So I might make another shortcut here and say that the variance of meaning and content, from age to age, has less variance for traditional Christians.<BR/> <BR/>As for the Disciples of Christ, that’s pretty much up to them, individually, as-well-as denominationally. I would say that in more recent years the DOC has become far, far more liberal, and far less traditional than once was the case.Faultline USAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691318732494110768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-89869647323062803552008-03-22T13:53:00.000-06:002008-03-22T13:53:00.000-06:00Deirdre, my dear, Christians must judge actions, n...Deirdre, my dear, Christians must judge actions, not the state of a soul, which only God can know. Try looking up “discernment.” Be careful how you write, because it sounds like you are making quite a few judgments about things you don’t know. For example, you are judging the Catholic church pretty harshly.<BR/> <BR/>I do commend you on your ability to look past your pastor’s failings and not fall victim to words that are “not the word of God,” or that could lead you astray. That’s a gift of God’s grace. May God bless you and yours this Easter season.Faultline USAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691318732494110768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-89970394893870126902008-03-22T13:21:00.000-06:002008-03-22T13:21:00.000-06:00Thanks for putting some "meat" on the phrase "Trad...Thanks for putting some "meat" on the phrase "Traditional Christians."<BR/><BR/>I guess I think of creeds like that as historically situated, shaped by the secular worldviews and political processes by which their language was negotiated, and interpreted today from within particualr historical and cultural settings.<BR/><BR/>They are traditional, yes, but not fixed or universal--their language "points toward" shared elements of shared Christian faith but their meaning and content varies from age to age (if not congregation to congregation!).<BR/><BR/>So . . . if a denomination is non-creedal (i.e., the Disciples of Christ, who have "no creed but Christ"), does that mean they cannot be "Traditional Christians."<BR/><BR/>I tend to ask Disciples: "Whose Christ? Which understanding of who Christ is and what Christ's work might be?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-19425603205023416502008-03-22T13:13:00.000-06:002008-03-22T13:13:00.000-06:00I think that if you don't repudiate Brite, they mo...I think that if you don't repudiate Brite, they most certainly should repudiate you, because Christians don't judge, they leave that to God.<BR/><BR/>Christians also know that all men, women, pastors, priest, ministers fall short of the Glory of God, otherwise the Catholic Church would be out of business based on the number of priests that have molested young boys.<BR/><BR/>I'll leave you with these words:<BR/>She said “Christians trust in the Lord Jesus Christ they do not trust in man. Christians receive salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ, they do not receive salvation through man.” No matter what church you walk into you will find men, women, ministers and pastors all who fall short of the Glory of God, but we remember this … man is merely the vessel through whom God speaks and operates, so it is quite possible for a man of God to speak God’s words, but yet fall short of the Glory of God. When you go to church, you are going to hear God’s word and to praise God. You are not going to church to praise the man who is delivering the message of God. <BR/><BR/>The pastor of my church has many shortcomings. It is possible for me to go to Church and hear and discern God’s message, while at the same time looking past, but praying for the weaknesses and faults of my pastor. There are many things that my pastor has said that I don’t believe or agree with, and frankly are not the word of God. But that does not stop me from going to church to listen to his sermons, because I never know, God might speak through him that day.The Legal Critichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10594687729537531271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-44042315668593071192008-03-22T12:42:00.000-06:002008-03-22T12:42:00.000-06:00When I’m referring to “Traditional” Christianity I...When I’m referring to “Traditional” Christianity I am speaking of and to those Christians of various denominations who place a high value on that which has been handed down throughout the centuries; those narrow and universally accepted points of Christian faith as found in the Apostles creed, as opposed to relatively new and radically politicized “isms” that attempt to merge theology with a more secularized world-view.Faultline USAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691318732494110768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-15890114016171110642008-03-22T08:59:00.000-06:002008-03-22T08:59:00.000-06:00Hi, Barbara. I clearly hear your outrage and--dare...Hi, Barbara. I clearly hear your outrage and--dare I say?--pain at Brite's decision and how you experienced the place as a student.<BR/><BR/>Could you tell me what you mean when you refer to "traditional Christians" in this post and on your blog in general?<BR/><BR/>I want to better understand your point of the view and the context from which you are writing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-29477660879878670452008-03-21T12:55:00.000-06:002008-03-21T12:55:00.000-06:00Anonymous. Thank you for providing the link to the...Anonymous. Thank you for providing the link to the YouTube video which I just viewed. I can understand how your church feels so hurt for all the good it has done. It’s a sad truth that when someone gets caught spewing Anti-Americanism or racist statements, no one talks about all the good he/she has done. “Just a sound bite” I think the sound bite recipient two weeks ago was Geraldine Ferraro. “Just a sound bite.” Did I place that in the proper “CONTEXT”? Friend, it appears that all it takes is “Just a soundbite.” Here’s another poultry euphemism for you. “What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.”Faultline USAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691318732494110768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-53672181455843765912008-03-21T12:40:00.000-06:002008-03-21T12:40:00.000-06:00Jack. Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I al...Jack. Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I also believe that there is far more to Rev. Jeremiah Wright than just his many, many, inflammatory statements. Unfortunately, his statements were anti-American and racist and were soundly condemned by Obama. Now either Obama was not completely truthful, or he actually believes what he said. And if Obama is condemning Wright’s statements, why is Brite still willing to honor him, when other high-profile men and women have been destroyed for far less??? <BR/><BR/>The answer Brite offers in its statement is CONTEXT – a “context radically different from that of many middle class Americans. “ <BR/><BR/>Well Jack, that’s just wrong. Hate speech is hate speech no matter what the racial CONTEXT. If Obama wants to unite this country, this kind of racist speech can no longer hide behind CONTEXT or be rewarded by any genuine Christian institution of learning.<BR/><BR/>You and I might like to hear what Wright has to say for himself, but the Bright honors banquet isn’t the proper venue.Faultline USAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06691318732494110768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6960732812801813184.post-77233645781793404382008-03-21T12:34:00.000-06:002008-03-21T12:34:00.000-06:00If you wish to hear a defense of Wright, go here: ...If you wish to hear a defense of Wright, go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GejUlWnp3Hk&NR=1<BR/><BR/>On this same page are numerous other clips of Wright's Sermons.<BR/><BR/>Also now beginning to circulate on the web are fuller versions of the excerpted controversial snippets.<BR/><BR/>One of them, the Sept 11, 2001 sermon, famous for the sound byte "America's chickens' have come home to roost" is actually about a completely different topic. There are longer versions of it available, and, the longer versions probably do more justice by showing both the over-the-top tone, and esoteric learning this man possesses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com